About Us

Vidya: Hello, friends. We've got a special guest on the show today, Dr. Nicole L’Etoile. Well, now, let me tell you, Nicole is one of those rare minds that makes you stop and rethink everything you thought you knew about learning and accessibility. You look at her resume, it's impressive – PhD in educational psychology, years of experience in L&D, and she's led accessibility initiatives in a wide range of places. But what really sets her apart is the way she approaches accessibility. Like it's not just a checklist item, but rather a mindset shift.

Nicole is the person you go to when you realize that accessibility is more than just about making sure your course can be read by a screen reader. It's about creating environments where everyone, not just a select few, can thrive. She's also got a knack for spotting what's broken and, more importantly, how to fix it. And when she talks about making learning more engaging while still accessible, well, you know, you're just going to get some practical tips.

And spoiler alert – she's going to bust some myths along the way. So if you ever thought accessibility was a nice-to-have instead of a must-have, you might be in for a rethink.

Nicole, welcome to the show. It's an absolute pleasure talking to you.

Nicole: Oh, I'm so happy to be here. And I'm so excited that we get to talk to each other again. I really enjoy our conversations.

Vidya: Yeah, good. Same here, Nicole. I keep following your updates on LinkedIn and whatever you're saying and all that. You know, I keep thinking, "We should talk sometime. We should get together and talk," and this is the perfect chance. So thank you so much for agreeing to be on the show. I'm just loving it. Thank you.

Nicole: Oh, of course. Thank you for having me.

Vidya: So, Nicole, when I first heard about accessibility eons ago, my first thought was, "What's the big deal?" The idea that there could be people with varied abilities taking our courses and that we had to design for them as well was just baffling to me. I've come a long way since then, thankfully, but I'm sure there are many people who feel that way even today. What would you say to them to help them understand why this is so important?

Nicole: Yeah, it's such a great question. And it's one of those things where I think about accessibility ensuring that everyone, right, everyone, regardless of their abilities, has an equal opportunity to learn. So we're removing the barriers, and it's not just for anyone who might have a disability. I mean, it's really for everyone. It's about facing the challenges that maybe we can't see, that we don't know, removing those barriers, and just making sure that all people are included and that we're ensuring accessibility for everyone. Right?

Vidya: Right. So, when we think about accessibility, the first thing that comes to mind is disability, of course. You know, that's the main reason we are considering it in the first place. What kind of disabilities are we talking about?

Nicole: Well, I mean, we're talking about a wide range of disabilities. We talk about visual, auditory, cognitive, physical, neurological, and more. But it's important that we design courses that consider all different needs. And so also, there's this myth that's been debunked. Right. Learning styles. This has been a hot topic recently.

Vidya: Right. Not just recently.

Nicole: Well, yes, it’s been for a while, but I feel like it's gotten some legs recently. I don't know, it's popping up more and more in my feed. And it's funny because I think there are learning preferences. But when we talk about accessibility and we think about disability, usually that's what comes to mind. We think about those, like I mentioned—the visual, the auditory, the cognitive, physical, neurological. But we're also just thinking about all the needs of everyone and ensuring that everyone, regardless of an ability or a disability, has equal access to the learning opportunity and that no one's being left behind or left out.

Vidya: Yeah... and, you know, what you said about it being for everyone, not just for people with disabilities... absolutely spot on. You know, because this is something that I experienced personally many years ago when, at some time, my laptop keyboard stopped functioning or, rather, the mouse stopped working.

I think it was during the COVID period, and I was not able to order a mouse or whatever because everything was completely locked down. And then we had things to complete—proposals, storyboards, and those kinds of things. I had to make do with just working on the keyboard. That was the time when I really felt the need for something where you could work without the mouse at all.

And this is something that people with certain disabilities face all the time. Right? And that's the main thing about accessibility. Now we are designing for people who can't use a mouse. We are designing for people who can't see certain colors or who cannot identify elements below a certain contrast level. So it's not just for those people. It's also for people like us—the designers, the ones who are supposedly without any disabilities.

We could find ourselves in situations where we have to actually access something without the use of a mouse or other assistive tools.

Nicole: Yeah. I mean, you're mentioning barriers. At any point, anyone can face a barrier. Just recently, I use a wireless mouse—the battery dies, and I'm in the middle of a project. Suddenly, I have to switch to the keyboard because I don't have time to charge my mouse.

So right in that moment, I can relate to your story. That was just a barrier faced in the moment. Being able to continue learning despite these barriers is crucial. And that’s one area, but also, just providing a learning experience that accommodates cognitive or physical disabilities ensures that everyone can access and participate equally.

When designing, it's about keeping these challenges in mind. When we look at standards and design practices, we often categorize disabilities, but what we’re really trying to do is think about what will allow everyone to continue learning at any time and remove barriers.

Vidya: Yeah. So when we talk about accessibility, there is an objection that comes up regularly. I mean, this is something that I faced and my team has faced a lot of times. When we are talking to a new client—or even with a client that we’ve worked with before—at the start of a new project, we bring up accessibility, and people say, "It takes more effort. It would be more expensive, so we don’t want to do that."

How do you normally counter this kind of objection?

Nicole: Well, accessibility may require upfront effort, but it's not necessarily more expensive. In fact, it can save time and resources in the long run by preventing the need for remediation. If you ensure a wider audience can engage from the start, you're just being proactive and making time for it.

You're planning out the time, creating the scope of the project, and thinking about the design process. Within that, you're considering accessibility features from the start. So, yeah, if you do that from the beginning, it really may not be more expensive. It does take more effort, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more costly.

Vidya: Right. Right. So I think it’s just a good principle. You know that accessibility might come up later, so instead of trying to fix things or patch them up at a later time, you consider it upfront and incorporate it into your design. That way, you don’t have to go back, rework things, and add elements later to make it more inclusive for a larger audience.

Nicole: Well, yeah. And if you—I don't know, I'm just thinking about an internal team. So I give an example of working on a project that I worked on. There is a team of five of us—instructional designers—and we have knowledge of web accessibility guideline standards. We have some training in accessibility. We're doing most Level A, Level 2 conformance within those standards. We're meeting these guidelines and doing the best that we can. But as we gain more knowledge and learn, "Oh, this isn't accessible," or "Oh, this needs a little more work," then having to hire people to come in to train us, people to come in and then do an audit—if you do that on the back end, after you have, let's say, 30 courses built, your platform's out there and people are accessing it, you're actually creating more cost, labor, and time than if you had thought about it from the start and built it in.

Vidya: Right? And when you say 30 courses, you know, I can imagine all the fireworks going off. Imagine updating 30 courses for just, you know, whatever new accessibility standards you've just learned recently. It's definitely not going to save you time or effort or anything.

Nicole: Yeah, it's just not efficient.

Vidya: Of course, it turns out to be more expensive. Yeah. It's definitely not efficient.

On the same note, there are some people who believe that accessibility sacrifices engagement. And this is a big thing that comes up, right? So one issue is time, effort, and cost. The other is engagement. As someone who is also an expert on engagement, how do you respond to that? How do you tell them that accessibility does not necessarily sacrifice engagement?

Nicole: To me, accessibility and engagement go hand in hand. I don’t necessarily see them as separate when we're creating or designing the experience. In fact, making the content accessible often leads to higher engagement because it removes unnecessary barriers and makes the experience smoother for all learners.

The deepest types of learning—the most reflective, deeper learning experiences—don’t necessarily require a learning experience to have bells and whistles. A lot of these interactive tools that you might see can become barriers, such as drag-and-drop interactions or other highly interactive tools. Those features don’t necessarily need to be there for engagement.

I'll give you an example. If I'm using H5P, which I do use often, I’ve done a lot of background work to recognize which tools can be accessible with workarounds and how to test them to ensure they are navigable by keyboard only and readable by screen readers. If we take flip cards, for example—we’ve all seen them in learning experiences—am I putting those in there thinking I’m creating more engagement?

If I’m designing an experience, I’m thinking about what is the most effective, deepest learning experience that will drive behavior change and ensure knowledge retention. If I want to create something interactive, I just need to make sure that it’s accessible from the start.

Vidya: Yeah, absolutely. I think this question about accessibility versus engagement comes down to: What do you think engagement really is? Like you said, it’s often about those bells and whistles—drag-and-drop interactions, timeline activities, and those sorts of things. Generally, people seem to believe that you have to have those for a course to be considered engaging.

Whereas, as you said, deep engagement does not necessarily require these activities. You can still have reflection and all the other instructionally sound elements that make a course engaging while also making it accessible. There are definitely times when you’re designing something, and you realize, "Okay, we have a lot of text now. We need to create different ways to share this information and allow someone to take it in and apply it, to reflect on it."

Maybe at that point, I’ll consider how to do this in a way that requires interaction, but without the assumption that more interaction automatically equals a higher engagement level. If a particular interactive tool fits the learning goal, then it fits. But it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be engaging on its own.

Nicole: Absolutely. And as you're building it, you're thinking, "Okay, before I create this, is it accessible?" Knowing to ask these questions upfront saves a lot of time and effort later. Otherwise, you create an entire module and then realize you have to revise it for accessibility.

Asking these questions upfront and having a better understanding of what is perceivable, operable, navigable—if I go back to the WCAG POUR principles—helps guide that process. I think about those principles when designing, so I don’t create barriers from the start.

Vidya: Yeah. Oh, I love that tangent. Thank you for mentioning that!

For someone who is just getting started with accessibility, what’s your advice? Obviously, there’s more than one standard, and within each standard, there are multiple levels. You have Section 508, WCAG, and others. Can you quickly demystify them for the people who are listening?

Nicole: Absolutely. Most will recommend starting with the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG). One of the organizations I consistently direct people to is WebAIM. That was where I initially got most of my training, and it’s where I continue to turn for guidance.

Looking at the standards and focusing on the essential principles is key. If I focus on the different levels of conformance—Level A, AA, and AAA—I understand that they build on each other. For example, if I have a video, Level A requires me to caption it or provide real-time captions. The next level, AA, would say I should also include a transcript.

So having a solid foundation in these standards helps. There are a lot of places to start, but WebAIM is always one of the best.

Vidya: Okay. Yeah. WebAIM—I’ve got to remember that. I mean, everything I know about accessibility today, I learned by going through websites like WCAG’s site, Section 508’s site, and reading about it on the internet. So WebAIM is a good resource. I’ll check that out and also put it in the show notes for anyone who wants to explore it.

Nicole: Absolutely. They expand beyond just the basics. They have additional resources and do a nice job of breaking things down.

If I can point out one other thing in the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, they provide fantastic real-life scenarios. They present case studies and user stories to illustrate accessibility issues. For example, they might describe a user—let’s say, John Smith—who encounters a specific barrier in a learning environment. This helps designers understand how these barriers impact real people.

Vidya: That’s great! I should definitely check that out. Thanks for sharing, Nicole. Like I said, I’ll also put that link in the show notes for anyone who wants to check it out.

How big a role does the platform or tool that you’re using play in ensuring accessibility? I hear people saying all the time, "Well, my tool doesn’t support accessibility." What do you say to them, other than "Change the tool"?

Nicole: Oh, so let’s say we’re using a platform or tool—well, that’s a challenge. It’s not an easy answer. One of the things I teach and talk about is that when we evaluate a course’s accessibility, we also need to evaluate the platform itself.

For example, I might use the WAVE accessibility tool, a free tool from WebAIM that allows for automated and manual testing. It doesn’t just look at your course content—it evaluates the entire platform. Sometimes, you’ll be working on something, and the tool will tell you that a particular issue is outside the designer’s control.

In cases like that, you can document it and bring it to someone’s attention. Maybe the color contrast in your learning management system doesn’t meet accessibility standards. That’s not something the course designer can change, but you can report it and advocate for improvements.

Designers aren’t necessarily developers or engineers working with ARIA on the back end. We might not have access to make those changes ourselves, but we can still raise awareness and push for better accessibility in the platforms we use.

Vidya: You may not have access to those as well. So it would be a different team sometimes. You know, the tool is purchased from outside, so you don't have access to or the ability to make those changes.

Nicole: No. So what I like to do is be informed and help people become informed and knowledgeable so they can have those conversations and bring those forward.

Vidya: Sure. That's great. So it's about knowing what you can and cannot do, addressing whatever is within your control, and documenting what is not in your control. That way, when the time comes, there is a possibility that those issues get addressed, and the whole system becomes more accessible.

Nicole: Yes, yes. And if I could just talk about one other tool since we're on the topic, there's something called the axe DevTool. If people are familiar with it, and I probably will say it wrong, but it's from Deque. That’s another tool I use. It’s called the axe DevTool.

What I like about it is the ability to share reports. I can run an audit and generate a report, even if I don’t have access to make changes to the platform or tool myself. I can share that report with someone else without having to type it all up manually or go back and explain each standard and why it matters.

So as a designer, if you know how to use it, you can run it and share that report or knowledge with someone else.

Vidya: That's great. That’s another tool that I’m going to link in the show notes.

You’ve done accessibility audits for various organizations. When you do these audits, what are some of the most common issues you come across? How does fixing these problems affect learning outcomes? What do you do in those cases?

Nicole: Yes. With an accessibility audit, you want to conduct them early on. The further along you are in the process, the longer and more extensive the report will be.

I want to emphasize that an audit alone doesn’t necessarily create change. It might not lead to organizational or behavioral changes—it’s just the starting point for assessment and evaluation.

Some of the most common issues I see include:

• Lack of captions and transcripts. We need both. It’s not one or the other. If I see this issue repeatedly across multiple courses, it’s a sign that designers haven’t been informed about its importance. It becomes a teachable moment.
• Poor color contrast. This is another recurring issue.
• Unclear navigation. If learners struggle to navigate, it creates a barrier.
• Improper use of headings. This isn’t always talked about, but it’s crucial.
• PDF accessibility. This is a big one. I personally don’t remediate PDFs, as that’s an entirely separate process, but I do point them out and flag them in audits.

When fixing these problems, the goal is to enhance the learning process for designers so they can develop better training materials. That way, they learn to change their behaviors and improve accessibility in their work. This, in turn, impacts learners on the receiving end of the training. There’s a great organization I recently came across called Accessibility Shield. They have a product that can track designers as they work. If a designer adds captions and transcripts, the tool notes it as completed. This allows you to track behavioral changes and improvements in accessibility.

An audit is only the first step. If we don’t see changes or improvements, then we’ve essentially just spent money on an audit without making any real progress. I believe more tools will emerge that automate tracking these changes to ensure that accessibility is improving.

‍Vidya: So this tool comes after the audit? You input the results of your audit, and then it keeps track of those issues? How does it work?

‍Nicole: I can’t speak in detail yet because I need more experience with it. But from what I understand, let’s say I conduct an audit for an organization and then provide accessibility training. This tool can track whether designers are implementing the recommendations. For example, if I identify that designers aren’t adding proper alt text to images, the tool can track how often this issue appears. If last month there were 30 instances of missing alt text and this month there are only 10, it shows improvement. That means there’s a measurable return on investment from the audit and training. It’s an exciting concept. I encourage people to check out Accessibility Shield. There may be other similar tools out there as well. The axe DevTool by Deque is another one worth mentioning. I believe they’re working on AI features that will automate tracking and remediation, which is where the future of accessibility tools is heading.

‍Vidya: Nice. You’ve already shared three tools with us. I’m going to search for them and put them in the links. When it comes to regular e-learning programs, we measure success in terms of learner reaction, performance, and other metrics. How do you measure success when it comes to accessibility? What kind of measurements do you use?

Nicole: One way to measure success is through quantitative tracking, like the example I just gave, where we monitor improvements in accessibility compliance over time. But for me, the real measure of success is removing barriers. If learners can engage with content without frustration or exclusion, that’s success. Nobody is going to get accessibility 100% right all the time. No one is making something perfect because accessibility also involves user preferences. We might remove one barrier but unintentionally create another.

What matters is making the effort and reducing barriers as much as possible. If learners aren’t forced to ask for accommodations, that’s a success. For example, I once worked on a team where course materials included a note saying: "If you need an accessible version of this document, please email us."

‍Instead of requiring learners to request an accessible version, why not remove that barrier altogether and ensure the content is accessible from the start?

‍Vidya: That makes a lot of sense. As you’re talking about this, I’m reminded of something I’m dealing with right now. This podcast is hosted on Spotify, and I don’t have a separate platform to host transcripts. For the first two episodes, I didn’t provide transcripts at all. For the third episode, when we shared it on LinkedIn, I wrote:
"If anyone needs a transcript, just message me or comment, and I’ll send it to you." There’s no built-in place to put the transcript yet, though I’m working on a solution. Until then, this is a temporary workaround—but as you said, the best approach is to remove that barrier entirely and make transcripts available without people having to ask.

‍Nicole: Mhm. Yeah. Now that you mention it, I wonder—since I don’t know much about podcasting—can you add transcripts to the show notes? Can you attach a document there?

‍Vidya: The show notes are where you include links to various resources. If I host the transcript somewhere else, I can add a link to it in the show notes, but I can’t directly upload a transcript as a document within the podcast platform itself. That’s the issue—right now, I don’t have a site to host the transcripts. But I’m working on it. So for now, this is a workaround.

Nicole: I'm getting to learn about how this works. I know nothing about podcasts. So you have to do it.

Vidya: Great. I'm learning so much. You learned something as well.

So, can you share a success story where improving accessibility made a noticeable difference for an organization? Because this is a common barrier that comes up, right? People ask, “Why do we have to do accessibility? We don’t have anyone with disabilities in our organization.” But we do have to do it. Is there a success story you can share?

Nicole: Yeah, and I love that you just said that because I used to get pushback with questions like, “How many screen reader users are in our platform?” That question alone offends me. Let’s think about that for a second.

I can give you an example of putting together an accessibility review team. We took about three courses from a platform I was working on and formed a team of individuals with different disabilities to review them. We wanted perspectives from people with auditory, cognitive, and visual disabilities. We paid them for their time and efforts to complete the courses and provide feedback so we could make improvements.

One of the consumers of the product was a school for the deaf and the educators working there. The feedback we received was overwhelmingly positive. They thanked us for always providing transcripts in addition to captions and ensuring the transcripts were sufficient. More importantly, they appreciated that they didn’t have to ask for accommodations—it was already provided.

We also received valuable feedback that audio descriptions would be extremely helpful. Some of the videos included math demonstrations, and while we had captions and transcripts, we hadn’t yet done a great job with audio descriptions—the narrated elements that describe what is happening in the video. Think of it like when you watch a Netflix movie with audio narration, where a voice describes actions, such as “A person walks through the door, closes it, and sits down.” Those descriptions are crucial.

Vidya: I think of it as the alt text for video.

Nicole: Perfect! I love that scenario. Yes, alt text for video—that’s a great way to think about it.

So, forming that team, getting feedback, and implementing those improvements was a real success for me. The people involved felt seen, heard, and appreciated. That was a step in the right direction for accessibility.

Vidya: It’s really about broadening your horizons. The wider your audience and reach, the more successful the program will be.

Nicole: Absolutely. When we say inclusive, we mean creating more opportunities for diverse perspectives and learning from each other. We’re including everyone and growing a community of learners. That’s valuable.

Vidya: And from a business perspective, it makes a lot of sense too. It’s not just about the course designer or accessibility expert—it’s also about business growth. By making content accessible and inclusive, you reach more people and expand your impact. It’s a good business decision in addition to being the right thing to do.

Nicole: Yes! If someone goes to a platform and can’t access the content, or sees that no effort was made—no headings, no structure—they’re going to leave. If I’m using my screen reader and navigating through a course with no clear headings or structure, I’ll get frustrated and disengage.

Vidya: One final question, and it’s inevitable—I ask everyone I talk to. How do you think AI will impact accessibility in learning? We already know it can generate alt text and other features, but what else?

It feels like there’s something new every day. By the time this episode gets released, there will be new capabilities we haven’t even considered yet.

Nicole: My thought is that we need to think critically about how AI impacts both learning and accessibility. More importantly, we have to ensure it doesn’t create new barriers.

Right now, as a designer, I have access to AI-powered tools that make my job easier. For example, Deque’s axe DevTools now includes AI-powered accessibility testing. Microsoft has Copilot Plus, and Google recently introduced Google Notebook.

Google Notebook, for instance, can turn documents, notes, and slides into a podcast-like format by summarizing key points in audio. It makes content more digestible and accessible in different ways.

But when it comes to actual courses, I haven’t yet seen AI tools fully integrated into learning platforms for learner-facing accessibility. Maybe I’m not thinking about it the right way, but right now, AI is making design easier rather than directly improving accessibility for learners.

Vidya: That’s all of us. Like you said, new tools emerge every day. It’s a moving target, and we’re constantly trying to keep up.

Nicole: Exactly! It reminds me of those old news clips where people were discussing the internet when it first came out. They’d say, “So, this internet thing… what is it?” It’s funny looking back now, but at the time, nobody fully grasped its potential.

We’re in the same phase with AI right now. We haven’t latched onto the defining moment yet. We’re experimenting with speech accessibility, AI-powered avatars, real-world navigation, and augmented reality, but we haven’t reached the tipping point where one AI-driven accessibility tool dominates the field.

Vidya: I was just thinking—this is pure fantasy, but imagine if we had an AI-powered accessibility avatar that could automatically generate captions, transcripts, and audio descriptions in real time for learners.

Nicole: Sure! I mean, YouTube already auto-generates captions. They’re not perfect, but they exist. The next step is improving them with AI so they’re more accurate and require less manual editing.

I’ll be honest—I don’t always edit auto-generated captions, even though I should. That’s something I can improve upon. AI is already making strides in this area, but we haven’t yet seen it transform how accessibility is integrated into learning environments.

Take Google Notebook, for example. It reformats documents into multiple learning formats, making content more accessible in different ways. What if we had a tool that could do that for entire courses? Imagine it could turn a lecture into a chart, a transcript, or a translated document on demand. That would be a game-changer.

Vidya: It’s exciting to think about all the possibilities. Let’s keep our fingers crossed and see what emerges next.

Okay, Nicole—thank you so much for coming on the show! This has been fantastic. I had an amazing time talking with you, and I really appreciate you sharing your insights.

Nicole: It’s been a pleasure. I really enjoyed our conversation. Anytime you want to talk again, let’s do it! I have so much to learn from you as well. Thank you for your time.

Vidya: And that’s a wrap, folks! I’ve added links to Nicole’s LinkedIn profile, website, and all the tools she mentioned in the show notes. Be sure to check them out when you have time.

Thank you for joining us on this episode of the Learning+ Podcast, where new ideas meet traditional wisdom to create smarter, more effective learning strategies.

If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe and share it with your friends and colleagues!

This is Vidya from Learnnovators, signing off—until next time, bye-bye!

Phil Vokey

Just letting those participants come in. Perfect. Good afternoon. Everybody just waiting for some more participants to join here, and then we'll get started shortly.

Nicole Letoile

Phil, you're gonna let me know when to advance the slide right.

Phil Vokey

Certainly. Hi everyone. Just wait for a few more folks to trickle in and I think, yeah, we can. We can get started. Okay, yeah, let's kick it off then. So welcome everybody today to Making Online Content Accessible For All Webinar. My name is Phil, I'm joined by my colleague, Nicole. And Nicole, do you mind just moving that slide forward for us? Perfect. And actually, before maybe we introduce yourself, Nicole, I do want to just do a few quick housekeeping kind of comments here. So thank you again for joining the webinar today. Please note that the session is being recorded and you can access it after if you'd like to revisit a part of the conversation. And we also encourage you to participate. So you're welcome to use the chat feature in Zoom to share any thoughts or connect with others. And if you have any questions for Nicole, please add them into Q and A or myself, for that matter, I'll try to address some questions as well, and if anything is missed during the Q and A time, we'll definitely circle back to respond to your questions. So with that being said, I'll just have Nicole kind of take it from here. Great.

Nicole Letoile

Thanks so much, Phil. So before we dive into today's session, I'd like to take a moment to look at our topics, and this will serve as our agenda for the session. We'll start by exploring accessibility, Universal Design for Learning, UDL and inclusive design, and then how they're connected and why they're important in creating equitable learning experiences. From there, we'll discuss practical solutions for improving accessibility, including strategies such as the alternative and descriptive text for non-text content. We'll talk about captions, transcripts, and audio descriptions, and additionally, additionally, we'll discuss proper headings and meaningful hyperlinks. I'll reference the built-in accessibility checker in Brightspace to simplify the process. And then we'll talk about how to incorporate this into your workflow so it becomes part of your course design process. I'll share some resources and practical steps to help you beyond the session. And then finally, we'll end with the Q and A, and I'll be happy to address any of your specific questions that are followed up after that. But let's get started with a prompt. So if you're with us in the chat, you can go ahead and dive right into this question. I want you to think about a time when you faced a barrier big or small that made something difficult to access, and it could be anything, and that could be a website that didn't work properly on your phone, maybe instructions that were unclear. It could be an event that wasn't inclusive, or even physical space that was hard to navigate.

So take a moment to recall how it made you feel. What were the frustrations of exclusion? Did it cause you to give up or find a workaround? By connecting to the experience, we can start to understand why accessibility matters and not just in the abstract. So take a moment to reflect, and if you feel comfortable, I'd love for you to share a quick example or a thought in the chat, and I also want you to imagine, if the barrier existed every day, how that might change your thoughts or comments. So I don't necessarily see the chat necessarily, but I'm hoping that as they come in, I'll see those going in the morning and I will, I'll continue on and great chat is ready and able. Thanks so much. Appreciate that, Stacey. So go ahead and dive in with your comments.

All right, and as we connect and you, as you're reflecting, I'll continue on, and maybe something will come to mind as we move through the content. So as we begin to explore accessibility, I want to emphasize an important point. Accessibility is not just about simplifying content or designing exclusively for individuals with disabilities, it's about creating learning environments that are inclusive and equitable for everyone, and we will make mistakes. Trust me, I have made a few. We all come from different experiences and backgrounds, so I encourage you to engage and share your knowledge with others in the session. And think of it this way, as when we design for accessibility, we remove the barriers, we open doors and we welcome every learner. And this approach doesn't just benefit those with visible or invisible disabilities, it's benefiting everyone. And when content is accessible, we empower learners to engage in ways that work best for them, and this can lead to greater success. So while accessibility, inclusive design, and UDL share common goals, they're not the same, and they have a distinct meaning. And the terms are sometimes used interchangeably because they are interconnected concepts that often overlap in practice. And inclusive design, you often hear are often called Design for All, is focusing on developing products, services, and environments to be usable by the widest range of people, and this approach considers all various factors, and that's age, size, ability, and disability, and that will ensure that everyone can access and understand and benefit from the design while accessibility is bridging, it bridges inclusive design and UDL, because accessibility is focusing on ensuring that people with disabilities have an equivalent user experience without barrier, without barriers.

Phil Vokey

Awesome. Great job, Nicole. There's one question that I tried to answer in chat, but I'd love to get your expert opinion on as well, and it's actually in Q and A. So the question is, how could I add the detailed description to an image in Brightspace in addition to the alt text, and I suggested a fig caption, but I'm curious if you had any other suggestions.

Nicole Letoile

Great question. So the way that I would do that is I would put it right in the body of the page, underneath the image. And if it's getting dependent, I sometimes will attach, like you've seen in the presentation today, a description document, a downloadable description, but tend to really just put it right in the body of the content, right in the text. Because really what you're trying to do is you're adding to the content, right? So it's important. So if we make it part of the page, or part of the body text, then it just becomes part of what's there.

Phil Vokey

That makes sense. Okay, thank you. Yes, it makes a lot. Yeah, more sense in the fig captions, thank you. Glad I asked that. There is another question that just popped up in Q and A as well. It's from Shannon James. And the question is, how do you overcome a lack of willingness by others on your team to enact the accessibility best practices that you use, and have you taught them, or any tips?

Nicole Letoile

That's such a good question. I think there's no silver bullet here. There's no perfect answer. It takes time. And you know, the more that I'd say, the more that we have understanding the why behind how designing with accessibility is helping all users. I think having that understanding and being able to communicate to your team is the first start, and then also recognizing that accessibility design doesn't happen overnight. There are elements and ways that we can get better. So introducing one and focusing on that can help tremendously without the overwhelming feeling.

Phil Vokey

Okay with that, I think we can wrap so again, thank you Nicole, and thank you everyone in the audience for joining us today. And again, the recording will be made available shortly, and you'll receive a communication about that. Okay, have a good day. Take care.

[Music]

Eugene: Hello everyone, welcome to A11Y Insights. I'm your host Eugene, and I'm the CEO of Engage. Today, we have a really interesting guest. Her name is Dr. Nicole L’Etoile. She is the current owner and head of L’Etoile Education.

Welcome, Nicole.

Nicole: Well, thank you. I'm really excited to be here, Eugene. I appreciate that you reached out and asked me to be a guest.

Eugene: So, why don’t we start out by getting to know a little bit about how you got into accessibility? It’s always something that is interesting. Tell us your origin story—how did you get into education, and especially around accessibility?

Nicole: My current role with L’Etoile Education is that I help my clients build more accessible content. They work with learning management systems, and my vision for my company is to make every K12, higher ed, education consultant, and Department of Education I work with ensure that all content is accessible.

When I talk about accessibility, we’ll get into it a little bit more, but my background is that I was a Learning Management System (LMS) administrator for Moodle LMS. I was on the receiving end of content that was going to go live to the public. I had been through some extensive training with WebAIM, who are amazing. I learned a lot from them about accessibility and the web accessibility guidelines.

When I would review a course, I would have to push back on the designer or do a lot of fixing. My thought was—what if we learned about accessibility from the start? What if we designed with accessibility in mind from the beginning and scaled up, so we don’t have these hard conversations eight weeks after a course is built?

That’s what I wanted to solve—ensuring accessibility is built into the process from the start rather than being an afterthought.

‍Frustration in Education

‍Nicole: Education often operates on a "build the plane while it's in the air" model, which creates frustration, especially in K12 and the Department of Education. Being reactive rather than proactive has been a challenge throughout my career as a teacher, principal, and consultant.

For instructional designers, this can be particularly frustrating when they put so much effort into building courses or documents, only to be told that they need to redo their work to meet accessibility requirements. My approach is to offer training and support early on, so accessibility is not an afterthought.

Example of a Project

‍For instance, an education consultancy that supports K12 and professional development providers might approach me for assistance. I start with a needs assessment, understanding their goals and the learning management systems they use. I conduct an audit using tools like Wave, Arc Toolkit, and ANDI.I prioritize issues as significant, moderate, or recommended and provide a report. The next step is training—large group sessions, small team training, or one-on-one guidance. Accessibility checks are then integrated into their design process.

‍Compliance

Some clients come to me for legal compliance, while others genuinely want to make their content more accessible. Educators often feel a moral obligation to be inclusive, while organizations may be more focused on meeting legal standards. Regardless of the motivation, accessibility benefits everyone. Even those looking to simply "check a box" end up making their content more inclusive.

Uniqueness

As a runner, I apply the same discipline and drive for improvement to accessibility work. My goal is always to reach the highest accessibility standards (double or triple A). Accessibility is an ongoing process, always striving to be better.

Tag Order

A standout feature of this tool is its ability to check and fix tag order in PDFs—a capability missing in other tools. Previously, I had to use expensive software like Adobe Acrobat to manually remediate PDFs. Now, I can ensure proper reading order within the tool itself, making accessibility more intuitive and less technical.

Case Studies

Beyond course design, accessibility is essential for case studies, white papers, and reports. Many institutions struggle with making their reports accessible. With this tool, they can create fully accessible documents from the start, ensuring compliance when they publish.

PDF Remediation

A feature I’d love to see in the future is the ability to import an existing PDF and fix accessibility issues directly. Remediation is currently a time-consuming process requiring multiple tools, and a single solution would be a game changer.

Trends in Accessibility

One major trend is making accessibility guidelines less jargon-heavy and more user-friendly. There's also growing interest in AI and automation for accessibility—can AI automatically reorder headings, fix contrast, or adjust layouts?

While some automation exists, human review is still essential.

Less Manual Work

As AI improves, some accessibility fixes will require **less manual effort**. AI could potentially restructure documents for better accessibility, reducing the workload for designers.

Human in the Loop

That said, human oversight remains crucial. AI-generated alt text, for example, still needs to be reviewed for accuracy. AI lacks full context, making human review necessary to ensure quality.

Canva vs. This Tool

At first, I thought this tool was similar to Canva. But after using it, I realized it’s much more robust, especially for creating accessible documents.

Canva focuses on visuals, whereas this tool is dedicated to document creation and accessibility compliance. For PDFs, newsletters, and reports, this tool is the better choice.

Conclusion

This has been a great conversation.

For those interested in learning more about my work, visit my website LEtoile-Education.com or connect with me on LinkedIn. I work with K12, higher ed, education consultants, and departments of education to improve accessibility. Thank you for having me today!

Luke Hobson: Dr. Luke, here. And today we are talking all about accessibility at the timing of this podcast recording. It just so happens to be global accessibility awareness day. And certainly when it comes to learning experiences, accessibility is an essential detail that we should absolutely be paying attention to. And it just so happens that I have a friend who specializes in thinking about accessibility and online learning experiences and that is who you're going to be hearing from today.

We are going to be joined by Dr. Nicole L'Etoile. She has been working inside of this space for quite some time and I really wanted her to be able to come on thisshow and to share more about how to make our online learning experiences accessible for all people. Nicole was actually a recent graduate over at Instructional Design Institute and a part of the Instructional Design Institute's program is that the students have to be able to create their own type of course at the end of everything. And she chose to be able to make a course about how to make content accessible, especially within the online space. And as I was going through this course, I was looking at it and I was like, this is amazing. I want you to come on the podcast and talk more about this because certainly she has many different types of tips and strategies that you're going to be hearing about inside of this episode. So we're going to be hearing more from tools, from resources, even going back to the basics of defining accessibility and what we really mean.

How can we go above and beyond to make our accessible types of learning experiences really for all people and also talking about the challenges with accessibility. We bring this up and certainly I have worked with some subject matter experts before in the past and they kind of pushed back against me with accessibility. And I was like, that's kind of weird. So we talk about this to be able to figure out different types of ways and strategies to get around these types of barriers, if you just so happen to be facing them inside of the workplace.

So today is all about designing learning experiences for all people. And of course, be sure to go down below inside of a show notes folks because this episode, This is a show notes episode for sure. Lots of resources, lots of tools. Nicole also has made her course that she created into a public version of this course for online learning experiences and making them accessible for all people. So that course is actually going to be launching soon as well, so be sure to go down below inside of the show notes and check out everything. But with all of that being said, I'm not gonna waste any more time. Here is the one and only Dr. Nicole L'Etoile. Nicole, welcome to the podcast.

Nicole: Hi, Luke. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Of course, happy to have you. 

Luke: Nicole, for the folks at home who don't know who you are, could you please introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit more about who you are and what is that you do? 

Nicole: Absolutely. My name is Nicole L'Etoile. I am a white female in my late 40s. I have brown hair with some blondish highlights. It's pulled back right now in a ponytail and I'm in my home office with my headset and my new podcast microphone and I'm ready to talk. Of course.

Luke: Of course. Now, Nicole, you are here on a very special day, which somehow happens to magically align from when we scheduled this podcast, which happens to be Global Accessibility Awareness day. And wouldn't you know it? We are talking about how to make online content accessible for all people. So once again, I didn't plan that.. And when this was planned, I thought, wow, he is just, and he was so cool about you were just so cool about it because

you're like, let's do it Thursday. And I was like, he must know. He must know it is. So yeah, it just really worked out. But he doesn't. And he's got very lucky.

It worked out that the stars align with this podcast episode. But from knowing you, Nicole, because now I have known you for over the last year. You're a recent graduate over at Instructional Design Institute. You also created a fantastic course project that really was all about today's theme with talking about accessibility and being able to educate all folks as far as this goes. So clearly, you're very passionate about this area. And I'm kind of curious about where your passion comes from? How were you introduced to accessibility, especially inside of the online learning space?

Nicole: Yeah. Well, thanks for the question. And I'm just going to back up and give a little bit to context about my role and my background and then lead into that question. So I'm in my 23rd year career, all within the K through 12 space. If you were to ask me what my title was, I would say professional development specialists, learning development specialists. I don't know these days. I think there's so many things that I could call myself founder of my local education LLC, an LMS specialist. But really, you know, I started out, I'm a technology and business educator who went up the ranks and became a school principal and a consultant and did some PD. And I, you know, I think what happened was I kept thinking, "What is next for me? Where am I going?" And I ended up deciding to really focus back on how I put all this together. I'm a teacher. I'm a school leader. But I love technology. I love creating courses. And so I took a role as an LMS administrator instructional designer. And I think when you asked the question of when did this become a passion, it became a passion when it became my everyday work, and I took on this role. And one of the key responsibilities of the job was that I had to do what we call an admin review for a course. 

So every course designer, every instructional designer on the team would create the course and I would either provide support along the way or I would receive the course at the end and I'd have to put it through a rigorous admin course review and say whether it could go live or not. And it would end up being a back and forth between me and the designer or the subject matter expert and their designer. Sometimes there were three of us working on that course. And I, what was happening was as I was getting more confident and comfortable and learning about accessibility, because that was a key part of that review. I started to realize that we were not meeting standards, that we were not doing a great job. So. educators so that they could support their students. And we should be the gold star.

We should be the model. Because if we're not doing that, how can we ask others to do it? - Exactly, and I'm sure you made so many friends by calling them out saying that things are not accessible and they just loved your comments. - Oh, yes. I was gonna say a couple of times was referred to as the accessibility police. We had a Copyright police, and we also had accessibility police, so sorry about that. - Yeah, you're like, "You're sorry, but you're not." You're like, "Kinda should be definitely doing this." You know, that, yeah. So, 'cause I've been there before too, so I'm like, "Oh, I know that, I know that all too well." So it's always a good time to try to be able to do those things, but as you were saying, extremely important, essential, crucial, we should be obviously doing all these things. So before, and I kept on saying all of these things, but I wanna break that down for a second because when we're thinking about from accessibility, I know that as soon as we say that word, folks are immediately thinking about a couple of different things as far as for what exactly are we talking about when we're saying we're trying to be able to make an online learning experience accessible.

So I'd love to dive into that and to get more of a clearer definition and perception about when you hear the word accessibility, what comes to mind as far as what's inside of that space? Yeah, so when talking about accessibility in the context of online learning, referring, say, to design or delivery of educational experiences in a way to ensure that all learners, regardless of their physical impairments or cognitive, if we break down the different disabilities, but impairments and disabilities that they can fully participate and engage with the content. And then it goes broader than that. Can everyone access the content beyond visual impairments or cognitive impairments and disabilities? And so we're talking about content accessibility, ensuring the materials are accessible. We're talking about the platform. Is the LMS, can we navigate it? Is the learning management system itself accessible?

Are we making sure that communication within our courses is clear? Do we have assessments and activities that are adopting UDL principles? And so I think it means a lot of things. I think we start with the checklist. We start with the WCAG standards and saying are we meeting the standards? Are we within compliance? And I don't know about you, but I don't like it when anyone gets left out. I especially feel that when we're designing experiences, it's our job. It's our responsibility to make sure that we include all people, all learners. And so, regardless of an impairment or disability, is this content accessible to everyone that wants to participate? Yeah, of course. Of course. And yes, we shouldn't be leaving people out, especially in education, of all the places. Let's not have this be an education for thinking about leaving people out for everything. So that is a excellent definition and very textbook, very impressive. You're able to say that. So when thinking about with this, I would love to actually start with a success story because I know that we are talking about from accessibility as far as for like being accessibility police and some people I know can have like, oh, there's that person who's always going to flag me down. But however, there's like, for superpowers, as far as we're having your learning experience is accessible for all because now they serve all people. So to me, that's like a massive win to be able to go into that direction. So I'd love to hear an example about a time where you saw an opportunity to be able to take something, to make it more accessible. And in turn, that actually made the project like 10 times better. Story to share. Of course.

Yeah. And there were a few that came to mind as you're asking the question and there're real concrete examples and then there's some more of the emotion, the personal side to it. I think if we're looking at a concrete example, you know how to see those accessibility overlays some nowadays that are on sites and you see the little accessibility icon and they're everywhere and we, an organization that I was at was using it on our Moodle LMS and quickly come to realize that that's not the way to go because for those who are using screen readers and assistive technologies and have certain disabilities and impairments, that overlay actually makes it worse. So the overlays themselves can prevent screen readers from reading certain things it can mask, it becomes about, you know, a CYA as opposed to is it really making it accessible. And so we, a project that I was on and what we led, decided to do what we call an accessibility review. So it was putting together a team of five people who take our courses and asked them to review a course from Accessibility Lens. We had somebody there with a visual impairment, a hearing impairment, motor, so I could only use the keyboard. And so had different lenses to go through courses and then provide some feedback.

And that was truly one of those experiences where again, it was just great to go through it and provide this opportunity but to hear from the participants who said, "Thank you. Thank you for thinking of us. Thank you for making the effort and it'll never be perfect and we know that but we just want to appreciate and we feel seen and thank you." So I would say that that went a long way and a project that I'm proud of. Absolutely. Why would you not want to be able to get feedback directly from the users who are going to be experiencing this and to give be that. And I know that that's some standard practices for corporate organizations around us is like that is so brilliant to be able to do, especially like for products with apps and everything of a sort. But that's just a part of our standards to be able to say that if every person's going to be downloading this app, that we need to go right to the source, have them actually test it and to give us feedback to say, are we on track or maybe not so much and we got to figure things out. So that is a brilliant idea to be able to do. - Yeah, yeah, I think it just seems so natural, right? So you want to get feedback on any learning experience, mostly that you're providing. So I think what was happening is an admin review of the course, it's, well, I don't necessarily use a screen reader, I can test it with a screen reader and I use certain ones to do that with, but I'm not really getting the learner experience fully.

So in order to do that, I need to hear from someone who is going to experience this in that way. And so your, your post, I'll show up your message reminds me too about one post that I stopped because you and I are both very active on LinkedIn or using this thing, like, you know, on a daily basis. One of the things that I didn't think about when you post inside of LinkedIn is the way that you have the spacing in between the different types of sentences. So, you know, the ones that usually go viral, which is like a line, and then like enter, there's another line. And like, yeah, I was like, it just, it just goes forever and ever and ever. And I was following and a friend of a show, Bella Gitan, uh, made a post about how she has mobility issues. And she was like, when you do that, I am scrolling for an eternity to be able to read this post. It's not optimal to be able to do it in this way for folks like myself. And I was I had no idea and immediately as soon as she said that, I was just like, I will not do that. I'll make sure it's spaced accordingly so that that way people can follow along and it's not like a tremendous eyesore. Yeah, yeah. And it goes the same way with a course or within documents. So a lot of times you'll see documents embedded into courses and they're not necessarily using the heading structure. And it's the same. It's almost asking someone to open up the document and be like, it doesn't matter to me what you want to read in this document or not, you're just going to have to scroll through this entire thing and I'm not going to provide you any context labels or headings to stop you and say, "This is important. You might want to read this part." So it's the similar experience. You don't know until you're in that position of like, "Oh, this is really difficult for me." And I always say accessibility is when there is no barrier to the learning, but also when someone doesn't have to ask or bring it to your attention that that to me is a true perfect gold star of accessibility that someone can access and be part of a learning experience without having to even think about their disability.

Now that's an absolute win. So let's talk about a few types of typical challenges in regards to how you reviewed courses and you would try to be able to see what people did and try to be able to flag them and things of this nature. For the folks listening at home who are the educators, the designers, what are some of the common types of challenges in regards to what you would see, especially within the online learning space and thinking about it from an accessibility lens? Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to mind is cognitive overload. So if we're talking about neurodivergent and we're thinking about people that just, you know, just thinking about the content coming to you all overwhelmingly, I reviewed one course once, and it was, you know, all the bells and whistles, and this particular designer just loved to try every H5P that they could, and it was like a goal of theirs. Every week I'm going to insert this new interactive tool because it's fun for me to play and learn and put it in. And I think what, experiencing that cognitive overload of wanting to do too much, when sometimes it could be a simple text document that could get, you know, a simple text document or activity assignment that you can accomplish a deeper learning experience.

So I would say cognitive overload when it comes to, to courses is something that I've experienced often. Color contrast, believe it or not, is still, although basic color contrast is often I love my web aim color contrast checker tool to check those But yeah, if you, um, you'll see that and you know, we know the basics, there is no alternative text and still see that often, um, close captions and a transcript, audio transcripts is the requirement.  Sometimes you only see one or the other or none. Uh, so yeah, I think, um, I think still those basic ones are what I see the most, um, and, And Cognitive Overload is the one that comes to mind right now.

Yeah, but when you mentioned that too, I'm not sure if you saw, there was a series about the New York Jets on YouTube and they were showing about the coaches going up to the front of the room and giving their PowerPoint presentations like breaking down the different types of plays. Well, the Jets have an instructional designer on the staff and he took a picture of that and he was just like, - I promise I did not do this. - That's great. - Yeah, and especially too when thinking about the different color combinations for those who are colorblind and have those impairments. And it's just like, why are you making things like red and green? Like what? Why? 

Yeah, I get you want to make this highlight and make it bright and yellow, but it's not really the best way to get the message across. I think sometimes you still see folks relying too much on color for conveying important information. If I put something in red, but I don't put importance or notice here or attention, use some language and text, they don't know that it's important just by color alone. - Right, right, no, it makes sense. So you mentioned a couple of tools in that last answer and that's actually where I wanted to go next is to hear more since you are so fantastic inside of this space. What are some tools you can share with us in regards to things that we should just always have them in the background and always that hands to be able to make sure that we're running them for our learning experiences? 

Yeah, I like that. You know, I try to put my two hats on being that LMS administrator hat and then the instructional designer hat and knowing that there's slightly sometimes different roles, You know, the more you know, um, it was like, that was an NBC thing. The more you know, and every time I, the more you know, I did say that I was in my late forties, didn't I? Yeah. Um, so that's dating myself. So yeah, I think whatever I start with, the, what is it low, you know, kind of low effort, high impact and, and your accessibility checkers built in to your tools are a great place to start. Most have them. If you're using an LMS, you'll have them in all of the ones I've seen so far, canvas, bright space, Moodle. The ones inside Canva have them too.

If you're using Canva or a Venngage, Venngage is the other one that people use for diagrams and images. So anyway, so using your built -in tools. I use the Wave tool that's popular. It's free, you can get that on the WebAIM website. And the Wave tool, I keep that up and I run them. And after I design a course, I currently right now I'm designing something and I did, I built it out and I put out all the modules. And then I ran my Wave tool after just, I try not to look too much at everything. Start with the contrast, the, sorry, the critical items, and then I go from more critical to significant and look at the alerts. So Wave Tools 1, the Arc Toolkit is free. The Arc Toolkit is something that you can go if you're a little bit more savvy and familiar with code, and you're not uncomfortable getting into the developer tools. So it runs on your browser and then you go into your more tools, developer tools and you can go from there and it'll pull up and it does a little bit more checking of structure and headings.

It's one that I use often. Of course, if you're using Grackle for docs and slides, if you bet a lot of presentation content, I always refer to Grackle, free extension. So those would be the ones that I would suggest for day use. And then even when, before I go live, I run my own, I have a Mac, so I run the voiceover to make sure that, or a free screen reader, NVDA, I check that as well. I think sometimes that goes a little bit above and beyond. But if you're willing, I always say it's always worth designing from the start, where you keep it in mind from the very beginning. If you're going to write out the text, put it in Microsoft Word, use the heading system, use Grackle, check it first, then put it into the platform. But if you don't have the time for that and you're building out and you're okay with doing these checks before it goes live, then those are the tools I'd recommend to just give it a look over. Like I said, it'll be perfect.

It's just, the more you know. I mean, you absolutely just shared some tools I have not heard of before. Obviously, we're going to keep on learning more as we keep going, which is the whole point of this conversation and the podcast. Keep on sharing more insights and knowledge and being able to figure out what folks who are actually inside of this space are currently doing, what they are using, and everything of the sort. When you just say, you rattle off a ton of these different types of awesome different forms of products. If you are currently working with a SME, I'm trying to envision myself as an ID, and I'm going through a type of course, and I'm working with a SME or a professor, whoever it is. Then being able to say, "Okay, I just did all of my checks, I'm going through things. There's actually a few different types of opportunities here, but I want to be able to work on reshifting my focus."

And I know from past experience as well, that if I try to make a whole bunch of recommendations, I might get pushback. "It's going to take too long. It's going to do blah, blah, blah." And of course, I'm like, "That doesn't matter. It needs to be done this way."

Luke: How have you handled pushback as far as those types of common things, whether it's going to be from cost or from timing, deadlines, deliverables—whatever it is? How do you handle pushback while trying to make sure that you are going in the right direction from that design perspective?

Nicole: Yeah, that's a really great question and something that I lived through for quite some time. When I was working on a team, and it was my full-time job, it was actually more challenging than it is now as a consultant where I go in and do audits because people have asked me to come in, and they want me to tell them, and they want to make those changes. So it feels a little bit different in my approach to it. Whether you want the low-effort, high-impact approach, or if we're going all in, or you know, where can we start? I always say an extra bit of effort goes a long way. If it just means that I have to find a few of these to share and get started, and go over the trust of, "Look, we're doing this for everyone." I think there's definitely some empathy that needs to be a part of that conversation. Like I started out saying earlier, we don’t want to leave people out. How would you feel if you couldn’t experience that learning or you couldn’t access that learning? Sometimes there are those deep conversations around empathy, trying to put the mirror on the other person and say, "Try to think about how that might feel."

Luke: Where can they go to learn more about you, what you're up to? You also have a fantastic new course about accessibility as well. Like share with us, everything.

Nicole: Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn and It's Nicole, N-I-C-O-L-E. And my last name is L’Etoile, L-E-T-O-I-L-E. If you notice, L’Etoile in French means star, so that's why I am L’Etoile Education, Star Education. You can also go to my LLC business page if you'd like and check out more. But you can find the course, as soon as you go to my LinkedIn page, click on my website, and go to my courses. I would say that's probably the fastest way to do that. And then that'll take you to the course, and the course is hosted right now on Maven. We've talked a little bit about this, but I'm hosting on Maven, but it is a Canvas course, so it'll be all things accessibility, what we talked about today around the standards, but also more around designing for best practices.

So definitely going to have to talk about UDL for sure, but we're going to focus on as you're designing your course from the beginning, from the start, how to intentionally think about accessibility so that when your course goes live, we've done a good job. So I hope you join me. We start September 23rd. Of course, as a former educator and school principal, I was thinking, "I'm gonna give everybody the summer off. Let's not even try to start it soon." Also just thought it'd be a great time in the fall to kick it off. So we start September 23rd, and if you are interested, you can just contact me. I'd love to meet you and talk to you if you want more information. But yeah, that's where the course is.

Luke: Awesome, awesome. Well, I will of course include all the links inside of the show notes below for folks to be able to find this and the course to connect with you about everything we talked about today.

Nicole: Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure. I enjoyed your course, and my course would not exist without yours, so I need to thank you for that. Much, much appreciated, and it's been a pleasure.

Luke: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode. Be sure to reach out to Nicole and just give her a big thank you for coming on here and sharing her words of wisdom. I learned quite a bit from this conversation—which is absolutely awesome—and of course, I'm sure that you learned a thing or two along the way. Once again, her course is going to be launching soon, so go down below inside of the show notes if you want to learn more about accessibility from her perspective and all the things that she shared with us today.

As I mentioned early on inside of this episode, she is actually a recent graduate of IDI Instructional Design Institute. And if you are looking to learn more about designing learning experiences, essentially from A to Z, that is our seven-week-long course, and that is going to be starting up again. The next cohort starts on July 15th, so only a couple of months away and we'll be diving in there. Be sure to put in your application today and I cannot wait to see you inside of a class. But hey, folks, that is really all I have for you today. Do the typical things, please, that I always say as far as subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show—all of those things. Your words for everything really do help out with the growth of this show.

And once again, I appreciate you, especially for dedicating your time to everything with this show. But hey, that's all I have for you today. Stay nerdy out there. I'll talk to you next time.